tv Countdown With Keith Olbermann MSNBC January 11, 2011 2:00am-3:00am EST
and we took him down. that was the clip that was laying on the sidewalk right where he fell. >> colonel bill badger, thank you for your quick thinking and your heroism on that scene the national moment of silence. [ bell tolling ] at the state of the state address in arizona. and silence from the defendant in his first appearance in court. which of these stories will you be talking about tomorrow?
the secretary of state in the united a-emirates speaks out. >> we have extremists in my country. a wonderful, incredibly brave young woman congress member, congresswoman giffords was just shot by an extremist in our country. >> the extremists, she adds, and their voices. the crazy voices that sometimes get on tv, that's not who we are. the honest sheriff of pima county. >> the anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous. >> as a senator from his own state criticizes him for speaking out. our guest is sheriff clarence dupnik. the prognosis for congresswoman giffords. still no swelling. hopeful. still precarious. her doctor joins us. don't retreat. instead, reload. as he tried, she stopped him. patricia maisch will not answer to hero.
>> just kept firing all along that row of chairs taking out whoever was in the way. >> how someone this disturbed got a gun and the right to carry it concealed and the inspiration he seems to have drawn from the white power and antisemitic fringe. with the southern poverty law center's mark protau. tom delay sentenced. a word about worsts. and words about words. transforming palin's bulls eyes into surveyors' marks with josh marshall and denouncing violence while hinting of governmental tyranny that could justify violence? >> i choose to see it for what it is. the life or death of the republic. we're running out of time. we have to make this choice before others just make it for you.
sponsor this half hour is gold mine. >> we must stand together against all violence. stand armed evidently. all the news and commentary now on "countdown." good evening from new york. this is monday, january 10th. as congresswoman gabrielle giffords of arizona still fights for her life tonight and we get glimmers of hope we might soon be able to talk about the nature, not the chances of her recovery, her surgeons join us. we're beginning to see what impact the shooting and reaction and evidence will have when it comes to uniting this country into abandoning the rhetoric of violence and problems that require violent solutions. that impact today almost negligible. those refusing that politics have no part in this discussion,
attacking the arizona sheriff who made the obvious point that it's inextricable from this. politics which drew not just the shooter and the target together but also many of the victims, some of the heroes. one who came to thank giffords for what the democratic stimulus package had done forher business ended up saving lives also standing by to share her story. some of the dead, too, were drawn by politics. federal judge john roll 63 years old wanted to discuss judicial backups. gabe zimmerman working in giffords' office to serve constituents. dorwin stafford 76 years old married his high school sweetheart. she is one of the wounded. she says her late husband saved her life. they stopped by to tell giffords what a good job she was doing. dorothy morris 56, husband wounded. 79-year-old phyllis schneck who made quilts for charity. a republican who liked ms. giffords and came to meet her. christina taylor green there to
learn about politics having recently joined her student council. her life uniquely american born on 9/11. the daughter of a minor league pitcher, granddaughter of dallas green where he managed the phillies, general manager of the chicago cubs. the man accused of killing them jared lee loughner at his first court appearance today his family reportedly blockading their house when the fbi tried to enter. finding behind the house a tent with a display of a replica of a human skull. an envelope found at his house naming giffords as target for assassination, his politics apparently incoherent, his distrust for government however well documented complaining about government takeover, the unconstitutionality of government, u.s. currency, and so forth. republican senator jon kyl of arizona yesterday criticizing pima county sheriff clarence dupnik for his remarks on saturday about the political
climate in arizona where congresswoman giffords had been targeted repeatedly by violent rhetoric. >> i hope that all americans are saddened and as shocked as we are. and i hope that some of them or most of them are as angry as i am and as a lot of us are and i think it's time as a country that we need to do a little soul searching because i think it's the vitriolic rhetoric that we hear day in and day out from people in the radio business, and some people in the tv business, and what we see on tv and how our youngsters are being raised, that this has not become the nice united states of america that most of us grew up in. >> radio and some on tv as he phrased it responding by a claiming left wing political rhetoric comes in equal measure
and equal volume though it does not and b, the criticism of violent political rhetoric is itself politically motivated. never mind it was giffords' father when asked if she had any enemies who replied, quote the whole tea party unquote or that giffords herself e-mailed a republican friend on the eve of her shooting discussing ways to tone down the rhetoric. or that the fbi director said the internet has made the availability of hate speech a challenge or an anonymous senior republican senator told politico the shooting was a cautionary tale for republicans. quote, there is need for some reflection here. what is too far now? or that the tea party express replies to this day's events with a fund raising e-mail. almost overlooked in all of this was the secretary of state speaking in and to the middle east in the united arab emirates. >> we have extremists in my country. a wonderful, incredibly brave young woman congress member, congresswoman giffords, was just shot by an extremist in our
country. the extremists and their voices, the crazy voices that sometimes get on the tv, that's not who we are. that's not who you are. >> "national journal" reports president obama is likely to go to tucson on wednesday. if the quintessential mereness of the victims hadn't been clear there was today the identical twin of the congresswoman's astronaut husband, himself an astronaut, calling for an end to irresponsible words. calling for that even from the soundless void of space. >> we have a unique vantage point here aboard the international space station. as i look out the window, i see a very beautiful planet that seems very inviting and peaceful. unfortunately, it is not. these days we're constantly reminded of the unspeakable acts of violence and damage we can inflict upon one another not just with our actions but also with their irresponsible words. we are better than this.
we must do better. the crew and the flight control centers around the world would like to observe a moment of silence in honor of all the victims. they include my sister-in-law, gabrielle giffords, a caring and dedicated public servant. >> and the president today leading that national moment of silence. speaking later today to the better angels of our nature. >> obviously all of us are still grieving and in shock from the tragedy that took place. gabby giffords and others are still fighting to recover. families are still absorbing the enormity of their losses. we have a criminal investigation that is ongoing and charges that no doubt will be brought against the perpetrator of this heinous crime.
i think it's important for us to also focus, though, on the extraordinary courage that was shown during the course of these events. a 20-year-old college student who ran into the line of fire to rescue his boss. a wounded woman who helped secure the ammunition that might have caused even more damage. the citizens who wrestled down the gunman. part of what i think that speaks to is the best of america. even in the face of such mindless violence. >> nbc news confirming now the president is heading to tucson wednesday. we'll start though with the paramount issue. the leader of the surgery team at the hospital treating congresswoman giffords, arizona university medical center and
the neuro surgeon who operated on congresswoman giffords. gentlemen, thank you for your time tonight. let me start with you. there was smiling, even some joking at the news briefing this morning. does that say something about the congresswoman's condition? >> well, it was clearly not in regards to the condition of the patients. there is really nothing to smile about when it comes to statewide or even a national tragedy. i think we are hopeful the condition of the patients have stabilized. we have discharged a few of the patients that were originally hospitalized and moved most patients from the surgery intensive care unit to regular floors and the one patient that remains in critical condition is the congresswoman. >> as i understand it, tomorrow is considered a kind of benchmark day in terms of monitoring her condition for signs of early indications how she might do down the road.
can you explain why that is? >> we typically see the brain swelling reach its maximum around this day for most dramatic brain injuries. that is not always the case and because of that we're constantly using the words like cautiously optimistic and the fact that she is still in critical condition. >> the outside limit on that fingers crossed kind of approach to the swelling is what, ten days? >> i think that is the most we expect to see. i hope we'll see the signs that the swelling subsided even before then. >> another question and if this is wildly inaccurate please correct me, doctor. the discussion of what her recovery might look like, long term, my layman's understanding of this kind of brain trauma is that which half of the brain was damaged is imperative. where she was shot, she would be
more likely to be facing challenges that relate to speech and walking and maybe vision but that who she is, the essence of her personality, her memory and such, that's likely to be less impacted, is that anywhere close to correct? >> yes. i couldn't even speculate on that at this time. remember, our ability to examine her right now is very limited. basically to show us a thumb or wiggle your toes or something like that and so all of those higher and very subtle cognitive functions can't be discussed at this time or assessed at this time. >> does she know she has been shot? did she, indeed, as there were reports saying her husband was with her after the surgery? >> she is still intubated so is not able to speak on her own. we believe that she can understand and listen to a certain degree to her husband but as the doctor said
everything else at this point is still speculation. i think once we ex-tubate her we'll have a better assessment and will be able to let the country know to what degree she will recover. but there are so many uncertainties that we're dealing with at this point. i think what is encouraging is the fact that the swelling has decreased. we see her face, we also believe her brain swelling has improved. we will get another ct tomorrow and then reassess things. but as to a short or particularly long-term prognosis it is way too early. >> certainly. we thank you kindly for your time tonight, gentlemen. >> thank you for inviting us. >> thank you. let's turn now to the sheriff of pima county clarence dupnik.
thanks for your time tonight. >> thank you for inviting me. >> can you fill us in to any degree on what happened at the loughner home today, this report of a barricade of some kind? >> i don't have any information regarding what happened there. >> the evidence stage of this and finding that is now in the hands of other enforcement agencies, is that correct? >> not entirely. we're still working hand in glove with the fbi on this case. >> so would you know anything about these other specifics that were reported about this skull replica or this bizarre scene in the back yard? >> i've spent all my day dealing with the media as i did yesterday, so i really haven't had an opportunity today to get into that kind of detail. >> well, we apologize for that. there is a picture that -- of that back yard scene, and it's
grotesque, of course, and we'll move on to the sort of background to this. do you have any picture at this point about what drove this suspect, whether it's politically in general or specifically towards congresswoman giffords as his target? >> well, if i could just preface my remarks with the fact that this is a very, very troubled individual. his behavior in the recent past has been very bizarre and somewhat threatening. there's a lot of evidence that indicates that he planned this attack. he planned -- he bought the weapon with the intent to assassinate congresswoman giffords. to my knowledge, there was no reasonable reason that anybody could come up with that would give him a motive to do that. we're talking about a very troubled individual. and that's one of the things that concerns me and a lot of other people, that when you're talking with a -- about a person
who is unstable to begin with and they are motivated in some cases by the rhetoric that they hear and they see and in general terms that's why i say, that i think that people who make a living preaching hate, to hate the government, to be angry at the government, to destroy the government, to do it to politicians, elected officials, and so forth, have some responsibility, even though it may be free speech, i don't think free speech goes without some responsibility and some consequences. >> as you put it so eloquently on that tragic saturday night, can you share -- i mean, the response to what you said in many quarters was to describe you as a hero in this country. in other quarters, senator kyl, the congressman from arizona, francs, said you were politicizing this event.
i know in advance the answer to your question about whether you were politicizeting would be no you were not but explain the distinction between what you were trying to say and politicizing. >> what i am trying to say is that it's time, i think, maybe even a majority of people in this country feel that government is broken. that politics at the washington level is broken. and they're very, very angry about it. and they're tired of all the crap that goes on where people can't sit down and act in a fashion that's in the best interests of the american people. you know, political ideology aside when it comes to what is in the best interests of the people of america politicians have a responsibility to do that. and anybody with half a brain that's been watching what's been going on for the last two years knows that just the opposite is happening. it's my feeling that the anger
that is being conveyed by people in radio and some people on tv is done deliberately because it benefits one particular party. >> as a sheriff is it your -- part of your job and part of your responsibility to assess a cultural environment that might increase the chances of injury and danger to your citizens? >> i think that i have a legal responsibility to do that. >> perfectly said. thanks, sir. sheriff clarence dupnik of pima county, arizona. thank you belatedly for the extraordinary and extraordinarily detailed comments you made on saturday and thank you kindly for your time this evening. >> thanks for inviting me. the woman who stepped in and helped make this horror less than it could have been joins us next. >> ( speaking chinese )
men who tackled him. she does not consider herself a hero. she joins us. why his writings seem influenced by a white supremacist and how his ramblings on government and grammar echo those of a far right conspiracist. she proudly called them bulls eyes the cross hairs over 20 house democrats she wanted unseated including gabrielle giffords. today they've become surveyors' symbols. if he is dancing it won't be with the stars. three years in the slammer for the hammer.
call her a hero. nonetheless this afternoon patricia maisch got a phone call from the president of the united states. our fourth story, she and several other extraordinary citizens literally stopped jared loughner's terror attack from being far worse. she was at that congress on your corner event in tucson on saturday for its intended purpose and then the unbelievable happened. when president obama spoke of the tragedy today he talked about the people who kept it from getting worse. >> i think it's important for us to also focus, though, on the extraordinary courage that was shown during the course of these events. part of what i think that speaks to is the best of america. even in the face of such mindless violence. >> joining me now as promised patricia maisch. great thanks for your time tonight. >> thank you. >> just to start this interview differently than i presume all
the other ones you've had to do since saturday what did the president have to say when he called? >> well, actually i was on the phone with another media so he had to leave a message. so i have the president's phone number. it was actually his aide or secretary that left the message and i was very touched even before i called back and she put me right through to him. i was just absolutely humbled by his words and thankful that he was so gracious and took the time to call me. >> i'm sure you appreciated -- that's probably your first laugh since saturday and i know that was mine. so thank you for sharing that. >> you're welcome. >> unavoidably back to what happened, your part began i'm assuming waiting in line to speak with the congresswoman. had you met her before? >> i have met gabrielle. my husband and i have a heating and cooling business and some
years ago when gabby had a home down in the barrio we had done a bit of repair work for her. so i had made her acquaintance and i had worked with her sister melissa on a project, so i didn't know gabby well. i know melissa better. but i do have an acquaintance with them and i find gabby to be a brilliant person. she is a fulbright scholar, so engaging and so nonjudgmental and open to everybody's ideas. i just find her the perfect congresswoman. on saturday did you have any sense that something was wrong before shots were actually fired? >> no, i didn't. i was there early because i signed up and i thought i was going to be taken in order of signing up and so i went into the grocery store for a minute and there was hardly any people there when i arrived but when i got back out of the grocery store there was quite a few people. i would say maybe 20, 25.
so i just went to the end of the line and decided to enjoy the sunshine and listen in on what people were talking about. and i was listening to the woman and i was listening to the woman next to me whose teenage daughter was there and had served as a page for gabrielle for three weeks, i think she said, and they were there to get their picture taken. while they were talking i heard a pop and i'm not a gun person but i knew without a doubt it was a gunshot and at that moment i decided i needed to either run or drop to the ground because he had now just in another instant started shooting what has been told to me is semiautomatic and just pop, pop, pop, pop. i did not count but i decided that i was better off to drop to the ground instead of making myself a target because he was
already very close to me. he walked up and he was shooting at the people right next to me. the woman with the teenage daughter had shielded her daughter. i found out later she had three wounds, one to each arm and one to the back. i was just laying there on the ground with -- able to look out of the corner of my eye to see the shooter and i was preparing myself thinking i wonder what a bullet wound feels like and how much damage it's going to do. but instead, the gunman was now down partly on top of me and i saw the colonel badger and that i didn't know who it was then and roger salsberg had flattened him. he was on his right side.
i immediately got to my knees and they were shouting, grab the gun. grab the gun. and i couldn't reach the gun because it was in his right hand and that was the distant one from me. as they were doing that he pulled out a magazine from his left pocket and had it in his hand but he dropped it on the sidewalk and i was able to recover it before he could get it. by then the gun had been secured and i noticed he was flailing his legs and i was afraid that he might be able to get free, so i knelt on his legs, on his ankles. i did that for a couple seconds and then i noticed that colonel badger had a head wound. he was bleeding pretty badly and i said, oh, my god. you've been wounded. he said, yes, but it's not bad. so i looked, i was able to see it while i was still kneeling. i asked a young man named joe to come and take my place on his
legs and i ran into the safeway store, picked up paper towels that they gave me, and came back out and made a compress of sorts and held it to colonel badger's head and kept it there until the police arrived and secured the shooter and took him away and then the colonel was able to manage his own bandage and i did not see him again after that. and that was it. >> and what -- all of the events that combined to put all of you there, do you have feelings that pertain to some of the rhetoric that has been out in our political world of late that created this on saturday? >> you know, it's hard for me to say that. i dislike the partisanship. i dislike the rhetoric. i don't know.
that man has medical problems, mental problems. i'm not qualified to say that. i would suppose he might have been influenced by it. but that's above my scope of knowledge. >> certainly what you did on saturday was extraordinary and went beyond the ordinary responsibilities of citizenry in this country so to patricia maisch great thanks for your time tonight and whether you call it heroism or not great thanks for what you did on saturday. >> well, if i am a hero then the colonel and roger are super heroes. >> there you go. >> because they really brought him to the ground and that took care of him and the rest was just suspenders with a belt. >> wonderfully spoken. thanks again for your time. >> thank you so much. >> the latest on the investigation of the influence of hate groups on this man and the extraordinary juxtaposition of the commentator denouncing violence while his website shows him holding a hand gun.
how does someone like jared lee loughner legally get a gun and the right to conceal it? how does someone like glenn beck claim to be denouncing violent speech? there is the tom delay story tonight. punished to three years in prison, the former majority leader of the house of representatives for his november conviction on money laundering and conspiracy to commit money laundering, a swap of funds between a pac and state pac. mr. delay was taken into custody immediately to be processed to the austin county jail but the judge granted his release on $10,000 bond pending appeal. a continuing probe into
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his studies at community college but the state of arizona deemed jared lee loughner fit enough to purchase an assault weapon and ammunition that wouldn't have been legal had not the ban expired during the bush administration. a gun owner in arizona can bring a gun to the state capitol, to many restaurants, to bars. the state also bans its cities from passing gun laws stricter than t state law. purcse a glock semiautomatic pistol a little over a mth ago after passing a background check. federal investigators say loughner was carrying 90 rounds of ammunition on saturday loading his weapon with two high capacity magazines clips that hold up to 30 rounds of ammo each. federal laws prohibit selling weapons to the mentally ill but there is no way to determine if there is no way to determine if someone applying for a gun is in fact mentally ill unless they tell you they are or have been flagged by the national instant criminal background check system. arizona happens to be behind in entering its records into that data base. loughner railed against what he called government mind control on myspace and youtube.
the southern poverty law center's mark potok first reported on this saturday night that loughner's rambling showed the influence of conspiracist david winn miller. and also there were ties to american renaissance. the department has not established any link between mr. loughner and that group. joining me now is the director of intelligence project at the southern poverty law center. thanks for your time, mark. >> thanks for having me, keith. >> a layman looking at the youtube videos and list of favorite books this man claimed to have would i think rightly say ideologically this guy is all over the map. is that correct? >> that's not my reading. i think it is certainly true when you look at his material it is unbelievably discombobulated and hard to get much of a feel for what he is trying to say. he is also practically illiterate.
what is strong through his material i think is a very strong attitude of sort of the individual versus the totalitarian or tyrannical state, the government. that you see in his reading list, everything from the communist manifesto to "mein kompf" and george orwell and so on to some of the shards of ideas you find when you look through his materials. he keeps coming back to the idea of the government uses mind control, it manipulates people, uses grammar. you know, whatever it is. the government always seems to be the enemy. you know, i don't think that he is any kind of a, you know, seasoned political thinker. that's for sure. i think he looks quite ill, mentally ill. but it does seem like he has absorbed some of these ideas from these groups on the extreme right as he mentioned earlier. >> i don't know if you heard this but sheriff dupnik made a similar point earlier in this
newscast that the threat of the writings seems to be simply antigovernment. is that itself a stance that it's identified with any one ideology? >> well, i mean, certainly there have been antigovernment movements on both right and left but i think we have seen really in this country over the course of the last 30 years or so a combined of demonizing of the federal government in particular by certain portions of the right. really big hunks of the republican party. you know, some of this has been reasonably legitimate. it's just a criticism of large government and so on but it's often verged over into really vitriolic and demonizing attacks on the actual individuals who make up the government. at the end of the day these are human beings. so i would say, yeah. i see the same thing as the sheriff. there is the very strong threat
of right wing antigovernment feeling in what loughner had to say. what i did not see despite the reports of some kind of link to american renaissance was anything suggesting racism, anti-semitism, or even concern about immigration. i just didn't see that. and frankly i think that the alleged link to american renaissance is very, very weak if it exists at all. >> to the issue of the gun in his hands the "new york times" reported that the number of americans who support stricter gun laws dropped from 78% in 1990 gradually steadily to 44% in 2010. did we get apathetic about this? why did things like shootings at virginia tech or at columbine or any of the other dozen horrifying incidents have this sort of perverse impact? >> well, i'm certainly no expert on that but, i mean, one thing that occurs to me is how much the fear of having guns taken away has animated the world i cover, the world of the extreme
right, the radical right. certainly that was a very much a primary fear of the militia movement of the 1990s. that is a part of their core conspiracy theory. the government is coming after our weapons. then it will impose martial law, then it will toss those who resist into concentration camps and we'll all be forced into a one world government. the first step in each of these theories is they're coming for our guns. that's been stoked very much by organizations like the national rifle association which has played a loathsome role. you may remember at the kind of peak of the militia movement the nra put out a missive describing atf agents and other federal law enforcement officials as jack booted thugs immediately before the election in which obama became president they also participated in a kind of publicity campaign, headlined "prepare for the storm." whatever that meant. so, you know, there are people
out there who are stoking these fears, which i think are obviously unfounded. it seems quite clear that obama intends no real gun control legislation and he said as much. >> and the nra did that for money. mark potok the director at the southern poverty law center. thanks for your time, sir. >> thank you for having me. as late as november 4th sarah palin proudly called the mark on the district of congresswoman giffords a bulls eye. now the coverup. now they're surveyors' instruments. and this is not photo shop. this is glenn beck online, quote, denouncing violence and the violent while he is also shown brandishing a hand gun. the images and the imagery of rhetoric with josh marshall. when rachel joins you at the top of the hour her guest daniel hernandez congresswoman giffords' intern the one credited with saving her life. guys, great job designing repairview.
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is where you would ordinarily see our worst persons in the world segment. for more than two months i've struggled with its value. we suspended it for a time. there was a small clamor to bring it back and we did. the segment was born in humor and with clear intentions -- criticism, sarcasm, calling out, even ridiculing. but a lot of people especially
those who don't watch the show still think i literally mean these are the three worst persons in the world. there is potential danger in that. so the name has got to go. but the purpose to employ the french philosopher's explanation that laughter is a social sanction against inflexible behavior remains relevant and important maybe more so than tonight. we'll have a new version. no time for it this week or tonight. we have sadder things to discuss like the miracle of sarah palin turning gun sites into surveyors' map symbols. josh marshall, next. you go next if you had a
construed as advocating either. in our number one story the responses from several right wing media figures however indirect have been registered. to his credit on his website glenn beck today said of the killings in arizona quote we must stand together against all violence. never mind that guy over there on the left packing heat. beck also said the invocation of sarah palin's name in all this was an attempt to shut her down. to be clear the former governor has not been connected in any way to the gunman. palin's name has been invoked because of a 2010 web posting on her sarah-pac website that featured the congressional district of gabrielle giffords as one of 20 with a rifle scope bulls eye target on top of it. after her vote for health care reform in march last year the congresswoman's office was vandalized. she came on this network and talked about the impact of palin's imagery. >> the way that she has it depicted has the cross hairs of a gun site over our district. when people do that they have to realize there are consequences to that action.
>> saturday sarah-pac staffer went on conservative radio and explained the misinterpretation of the bulls eye graphics. >> we never, ever ever intended it to be gun sights. it was simply cross hairs like you'd see on maps. >> well it's a surveyors symbol. >> a surveyors symbol. >> from sarah palin's twitter account november 4th remember months ago bulls eye icon used to target the 20 obamacare-loving incumbent seats? saturday palin's fox news boss implicitly admitted there is indeed a climate of violence. there was a false equivalency between the vitriolic discussion on both sides of the aisle and he said i told all our guys shut up, tone it down. make your argument intellectually. you don't have to do it with bombast. i hope the other side does that. a statement from one group i had to have a motive to see the congresswoman shot because i
contributed to her campaign. that came this morning and then the claim in an editorial tonight in the newspaper that i was lying since the claim that there is a climate of hatred, quote, has no empirical backing. as promised founder and editor of talking points memo josh marshall. good to see you, sir. >> thanks for having me. >> one story yesterday. a senior republican senator speaking anonymously to freely discuss the tragedy told politico the giffords shooting should be taken as a cautionary tale by republicans. there is a need for reflection. what is too far now and what was too far when oklahoma city happened is accepted now. there has been a desensitizing. is the fact that it's anonymous all we need to know about it? >> most people in this country like the ballots over bullets model of politics but we have a history of assassinations and political violence in this country going back more than a century, 150 years to the one a lot of us think about.
when you start introducing, showing up at town halls with guns, when you start introducing this sort of military or kind of gunfire rhetoric, all of these things, the one thing with sarah palin's map that's just one thing. i'm sure it didn't have anything to do directly with this but this freaks a lot of people out. >> right. >> people who use that kind of language in a political context can't really be too surprised when something like this happens. people, you know, get in their face a little. >> why not on that? i mean apart from somebody helping someone say well those are surveyors' symbols, but why not just say we meant no harm but in light of this tragedy we're not going to use that imagery anymore and we hope nobody else does either. how could that possibly be detrimental to somebody from sarah palin's organization? to say that? >> i think the key is they've done that. they're kind of pulling -- everybody is pulling things offline. they don't want to admit they're wrong. there's a lot of accountability
is hard for people. >> there are different kinds of vitriol to use that term again being put out there. there is the over the imagery, the bulls eye and a dozen other things. beyond that every time someone paints the government as treasonous, dangerous, as having to be stopped, is that just another dog whistle with a different pitch? >> i think it's a little different. i think that there is, you know, we're in a very polarized time with a lot of demonization in politics. i do think there are certain adjectives and accusations you can make against people on either side. they're traitors. they, you know, these kind of words that put someone totally outside the pale of our political system. that sort of invites people to think in terms of solutions that are outside of politics. >> right. >> i don't put that in the same category of, you know, when a
candidate says, well, you know, if this election doesn't work out we might need to think about second amendment solutions. >> yeah. >> we know what that means. >> right. >> i think stuff like that is again you have a history of assassinations in this country. people are right to get offended and kind of freaked out and worried when people who are not some obscure person on some block somewhere but someone running for senate says something like that and, you know, there's no -- they're not kind of shouted down in a metaphorical sense. >> the ultimate response thrown out the left and the right are the same. >> you know, in the political moment we're in right now they're just not. i think you can see it by the defensiveness from the right. there was, you know, when the sheriff down in pima county said, just, you know, culture of hate and violence and so forth, you didn't see people on, you know, the democratic party say, what are you accusing me of?